Author
It goes without saying that a spoiler discussion thread is for discussing the events in the book — so people who hate spoilers (I don’t, my long suffering husband does) should probably avoid the comments here.
This is my favorite book in this series in awhile. I loved that we finally brought together the various fief lords and from a plot perspective covered a ton of ground and brought in many characters. It was fast paced and really fun and I made my husband leave me alone for several hours while I finished it 😄.
I especially loved the addition of Robin. What a great new character as Kaylin is at her best when protecting young kids. I was surprised to learn that she was still only 20 years old though. Talk about a dense life!
Tchula Ripton says: Michelle, I just finished Cast in Conflict last night! What a great story (although I confess I’d forgotten some of what happened in Cast in Wisdom, so I should’ve probably re-read that one first.) I really liked the Wevarans.
Personally, while I understand the spider “cringe” phobia, I’ve always loved them. Probably because Charlotte’s Web was the first book I read at six-years-old where I cried buckets because she died after saving Wilbur. I remember tearfully asking my mom, “Why did she have to die? She was so nice! Why did the writer do that?” So I’ve always had a soft spot for arachnids. Although I do admit, I’d be freaked out if I came face-to-face with ones the size of Wevarans! xD
I like how you resolved Bellusdeo’s emotional state, and explained Emmerian’s. It was very believable to me, and I hope they’ll find a good resolution in the future. I also liked learning more about Durandel, Nightshade’s Tower’s Avatar, and hope to understand more about their relationship, too. Liatt and Durrant were interesting as well. Liatt having a daughter with whom she wants to inherit the Tower is a new idea for the series, and I wonder how that will all play out. And Mandoran’s interactions with Kaylin made me lol as usual. I swear, they are so similar and I find it highly amusing that this annoys Kaylin at times. Teela and Tain must be laughing uproariously! Another enjoyable read. Thank you!
Jennifer Lynn BOSWELL says: This really was a great book! I usually reread the whole series when a new one comes out but I couldn’t wait that long. I’m with Kaylin, happy for Bellusdeo but sad she won’t be living there anymore at the same time. Change is hard!
br60103 says: I have been wondering about the economics of autonomous buildings. Do they provide food and things magically? Does Kaylin pay rent?
I also like Robin. I would have liked a scene where his parents find out what he is doing now.
Anjali says: Read the book. And then reread it again!! Iv read the series over 10 times by now. And every time I need some laughter and familiarity I turn to the Cast series.
It’s like every book after the cohorts rescue is about rescuing more people who have faded from the world. Seems to me like slowly Kaylin and Co. are bringing together various races and characters who almost always end up becoming “family” to kaylin.
Love the interaction between Terrano, Mandoran and Kaylin. It’s hilarious and brings much comic relief from the sometime intensity of other characters.
Personally I want more of Kaylin and Sedarias. The new old high halls and the new characters there. Kaylin and Nightshade. Evanton, Teela & Tain & Marcus. All the old lovable characters.
I know you can’t bring them all back all the time. But such are the characters you have created that I can’t seem to not want them more LOL.
Awesome writing as always. Love the series. The only real gripe I have with you Michelle is…. I wish you could release a new book every month!!!
Well done as the former Arkon would say.
E_ says: Anyone else think Kaylin is slowly influencing the Dragon Court to find their horses? I almost feel sorry for the Emperor.
Naomi Booth says: Unlike the other responses, I found this book harder reading. I enjoyed reading more about the Towers and the spiders. It seemed a little disjointed at times but that may be due to all the interruptions when I was trying to read it. I loved the hints that Liatt’s daughter may have walking difficulties and the Outcast may not be fully responsible for his actions. Is the next book going to have Kaylin trying to save the Outcast? Or will Sedarias find a way to solve her own dilemma?
Looking forward to the next exciting instalment
Tchula Ripton says: @E_says Autocorrect strikes again! (horses, lol) I think Kaylin as Chosen is definitely a prime mover of strange events and actions, which is pushing the Dragon Court, and the Barrani to change. I suspect Bellusdeo’s captaining of the Tower is not truly her hoard yet. She is wedded to the war against Shadow and the Outcaste right now, but the war or desire for revenge cannot be her hoard (otherwise Karriamis would not have accepted her). I think what she will build with him, and hopefully Emmerian, after the war is over, will constitute her hoard. That, in turn, will lead to Emmerian finding his hoard, which is to be with her.
I assume Sanabalis’s hoard is his students. The Chancellor’s is knowledge, which the Academia embodies, and Diarmat has his duty to the Emperor. Tiamaris has Tara, and the Emperor, of course, has Elantra. Can’t think of anyone I missed, unless some new Dragons awaken. Don’t think we’ll see any born for quite awhile yet into the future (if we see it at all).
E_ says: Autocorrect gets me everytime @Tchula. And yes…that should be hoard. Which almost changed to heard this time.
cgbookcat1 says: I tried to stretch this book out over several days but ended up reading the whole thing within 24 hours. I loved the new Wevarin, the idea of having the fief lords meet to strategize, and the upcoming changes for Bellusdeo and Emmerian. And I want to know under what circumstances dragons change color! Presumably the blue to silver transition means something important.
KScappace says: One of my greatest pleasures in this book was Serralyn and her reaction to being able to attend the Academia. She even develops a friendship with Robin. It seems to me, in a way, that Serralyn is what the Barrani were before the wars and the corruption of the High Halls. Also, I wonder if Maggaron will go with Bellusdeo? If he doesn’t what will happen to him? I don’t think he can rejoin his people. Each new book leads me more and more to the feeling that ultimately Kaylin will have to heal Ravellon.
I would love to understand the thoughts and emotions of other characters, like the new Arkon, Teela, and Tain especially, about Kaylin in her current state. I am always a bit thrown by the lack of respect she is afforded. Not just because of the marks but also because of what she has accomplished with them. It seems that many of the people around her might know something about what the marks mean and yet they withhold the information while insisting that she is being derelict in not learning magic. It seems clear that the magic she wields is completely different from that used by anyone else.
So, I would love to see a short story or novella about that. Like maybe she’s kidnapped and we learn how the characters truly feel about her while they are trying to rescue her? Something anyway. Cause seriously, they all need a slap upside the head.
Kat says: I loved it so much! I loved Bellusdeo growing and having some resolution. I hope we see something similar with the Cohort soon. I liked that Kaylin realized that she misses Severn, and am hoping that he will take more prominence in the next book(s). I also want to learn more about the Weavarin and maybe some other races that we haven’t met. I also love the idea that the outcast dragon may be controlled by shadow rather than evil. I’m interested to see where that thought leads. I’m also fascinated by getting to know the individuals who became the hearts of the towers and how they interact with the captains/ lords.
Jamie says: There was so much to digest with this installment — and I feel like we’ve only scratched the surface with Ravellon. I can’t wait for Kaylin to unravel the mystery behind why Ravellon is the way it is and whether she can free all its one-off shadows… how many of them are trapped and how much is it Shadow?
And Hope mentioning the deal again…things were never easy for Kaylin, but I feel like we’re going to get our “when push comes to shove” moment soon.
I so love this series, and all the relationships. It was great to get a clearer picture of some of the more background characters too, as well as deeper dive into some of the new characters introduced in the last book. Now I just need to go back and re-read this series again and again until the next one comes out!
Paula Lieberman says: This was going through my head during the scenes in the Libraries.…
“I’m a child of the Library,” by Piers Cawley [From 2011, though it was the past year and a half that I first heard it, sung by Piers live on Zoom]
Chels says: Sooo good :). I love that the towers and actual people, with emotions and attitudes 😂.
I cant wait to see the dragon relationship dynamics!
Always an amazing read, thanks Michelle!!
Grace says: I liked meeting all the fieflords, but was hoping Nightshade would be a major character again. It was nice for Ynpharion to put on an appearance.
Has anyone else thought that the Arcanists are being strangely quiet about all the recent events?
Other stuff we haven’t seen much of: the human caste court/nobility. And what ever happened to Roshan Kaylarr?
Tchula Ripton says: @Grace I found the discussions of the different parenting styles in Barrani families interesting. It makes sense to me that Nightshade had a good relationship with his parents, and desperately wanted to get his brother back from the Hallion now that we know his family was more loving than a family like Sedarias’s. Hearing about Ynpharion’s family also helped me understand and like him better. It was a relief to know that most Barrani feel that Sedarias’s family was extreme in terms of discipline and competition, and that this is not the norm, even in the families closest to the High Halls. I’m excited to see how things will change, now that the High Halls have changed, and Sedarias has come to power.
Because Nightshade loved his family – even if no Barrani would state it so boldly – that makes me believe that he wants to recreate that for himself somehow, with Kaylin in the role of Erenne. Which we don’t fully understand, but I’m guessing it has something to do with being able to pull Names from the Lake, which Nightshade wouldn’t be able to do otherwise, being outcaste.
I do find it sad that Teela doesn’t ever want children. I can understand her fears, but don’t believe for a minute anyone she would choose to marry would ever do the things her father did. Someone like Tain certainly wouldn’t, and they’ve basically helped raise Kaylin between them and the rest of the Hawks. I admit, I don’t understand the details of Teela and Tain’s relationship interactions. Sometimes I think they are or were intimate, sometimes I don’t know – maybe they are just partners at work. But Teela, as a Power, at least has choice, and since Barrani live as long as they want to, unless they’re killed, she has time to change her mind, or not.
I loved that we have several living wevaren, rather than one library ‘preserved’ protector, and getting to know more about the other fief lords. I am intrigued by the hints that Liarts daughter has walking difficulties, maybe other health problems, but that Liart wants her to inherit the Tower when holding the Tower agaist Ravellon means fighting. It was lovely to see Robin so happy with the Academia running as it should, and making friends with Serralyn. So much more too.
Shadowkindrd says: I am now officially Team Mandoran.
Agustine says: Thank you another awesome book, Michelle. XD I’ve just finished reading CiC n I honestly love it. I love the Wevarans, I love how Sedarias sort her fears through (with loving supports n sincere acceptance from the cohorts), I love how Kaylin misses Severn, n how she was enlightened abt how Severn feels through what she learns about Emme. I’m happy that Bell finally captain the ex Candallar, but kinda also a bit sad that she moves out of Helen. And also Mandoran and Terrano; gosh, I love ‘Em! N to see Terrano who will also apply for Academia is great. I’ M looking forward to reading more of your books. How many books left for this series that you have in mind, Michelle? I kinda wish for forever, but wishes seldom comes true. Grins. Crossing my fingers for at least another 4.or 5 books, though. XD
Anyway, stay safe n stay healthy, Michelle, we’re now facing a tsunami of Covid infection here in Indonesia. Hospitals overload, medics are infected n dies, n the funereal services (ambulance n cemetery) operates 24 hrs nonstop, n still not enough. Hope things will get better soon, n I’m still waiting for my 2nd dose of AZ vaccine, but I suspected that I may not get it in time, due to current govt concentrates more on getting people to get 1st dose vaccine, to create herd immunity. Well then, let’s just hope for the best for now. =)
Have a wonderful, blessed day to you n your family, n also to all fellow readers of Michelle ‘s series, wherever you are. Stay safe! =)
Paula Lieberman says: What’s Annarion been up to [or down to]? He’s caused quite a bit of psychodrama and undesirable outcomes in recent books, but was only the most peripheral of presences in Cast in Conflict [as opposed to Mandoran, Terrano, and other less, um, ordinarily flamboyant members of the cohort than Terrano, Mandoran, and Annariaon…
gregbanks3624 says: 16 books in and Elianne has not learned a thing. She wants to believe she is not stupid yet continually does the same things, always and forever seat of the pantsing. This was truly disappointing book considering a monumental battle was ongoing between entities that had the power of life or death are backgrounded, by a new species, two less than significant Baranni what could be construed to be an insane child. Don’t get me wrong the handling of Durant and Liatt and their denizens made for an interesting sidebar. Emmerian, Beelusdeo, Tiamaris, Hope played well who was the second blue dragon or was it just a slip of MS’swriting pattern?
Tchula Ripton says: @gregbanks I dunno…I thought it was really awesome when Kaylin used a rune of silence to basically shut up three arguing dragons. Doesn’t get more boss than that! ;-P
And I liked that she relied less on Hope this time around, too.
Can you mention the chapter or page of the second blue dragon? I don’t recall that, as the outcaste is ebony and Kamiaris is “ghostlike” or silver in appearance, but I’ve only read the book through once so far.
Excellent read as always! It feels like the overall series plot is leading up to something and it was cool for them to finally reach Ravellon, even if that wasn’t the intended result of their actions. It was nice to visit the former Arkon in his new role and learn more about Emmerian. I do wish that there could have been a little more interaction from the High Halls and the Emperor and I am anxiously awaiting the next time they meet in person.
I re-read Oblivion and Wisdom quickly before picking this one up to refresh things in my mind (terrible memory and all that — makes re-reading super fun though!) and managed to accomplish nothing but reading for the past week or so and can’t wait for your next work!
I have left the first book of the series on my husband’s coffee table and I am very quietly waging a war until he picks it up to start reading.. Until then I am pleased to find a spot to chat about these books!
Thank you for your writing!
I really enjoyed this story… was glad to see some of Nightshade, but was hoping for more.
I read Severn’s story and will read his next one as well, but I can’t ever feel ok if they get in a relationship. If she had babies with him, I can’t see how she’d ever be able to trust him completely!
I’d rather Nightshade because at least it’s clear that he had a healthier family situation and real love with his brother.… makes more sense and no ugly history of murdering Kaylins children to boot.
Also, was so excited that they were able to bring back so much from Ravellon! I know the Chancellor will be ecstatic… but who will keep the books? The wevaran, the Arkon, or the Academia???
Was a bittersweet moment when Belusdeo finally claims her own home… will miss having her around Kaylin all the time, but so happy she has a chance for happiness and romance also! I’m so relieved that it’s Emmerian and not the Emperor, but also worried how the Emperor is going to react.
So many issues are left open for the next novel and I can’t wait!
gregbanks3624 says: So Maria is the Tower’s name not Tara, how bout dat, however we still don’t know what species Maria is. To Tchula Ripton I looked but not suprisingly I was unable to reference to the second blue dragon.
Linda Robins says: @gregbanks3624 I was confused when I read the name Maria. I finally assumed it referred to Tara. It seemed so random to appear just once in this book with no appearance in any previous book that I could remember, and not really necessary to plot. Maybe someone else remembers a previous appearance.
@Greg & Linda: The Towers remember the names of the applicants who were finally chosen to become the heart of a Tower. Those names weren’t always kept by the Towers, and the mortal Tower (nee Maria) was subject to drift; she didn’t remember the name she’d been born with. (To be fair, this is true of Hallionne Orbaranne as well.)
I believe Maria was also mentioned, but only once, in Cast in Wisdom. And… yes, it’s probably more confusing than it needs to be =/
Louise says: I just hope we find out at some point just why Nightshade marked Kaylin. What does he want from her? I read each book hoping to find the answer. I believe in a previous book it was mentioned that Severn is Kaylin’s Protector. Reminds me of the relationship that Bellusdeo has with Maggaron.
cgbookcat1 says: @Louise, my theory is that when Kaylin went back in time and met a younger Nightshade, he saw the mark and knew to mark her when he met her in book 1. But I am sure there is more to it than that!
Tchula Ripton says: @cgbookcat1 Yes, and he also knew that Kaylin had seen him as outcaste and the captain of a Tower, which she called a castle. So he knew what shape to ask the Tower to assume when he took it. (Seriously, I love Cast in Secret, it might be my favorite book of the series).
Durandel sounds like a jerk, but he knows his duty as far as I can tell. Sounds kinda like Diarmat to me. It would be interesting to see more of Nightshade, Annarion, and Kaylin as they try to interact with him. Maybe that will happen now that the captains of the Towers are interacting with each other more. Durandel definitely doesn’t seem like a Baranni who is open to change and new ideas, so I wonder how he’ll perceive this.
gregbanks3624 says: &gcbookcat1 and Tchula Ripton You’re right Silence clears up a number of things such as the marking the fact Nightshade knew Tiamaris and Severn before meeting Elianne at the castle. He recognizes Severn from meeting him seven and a half years previous at the killing times, may I be so bold as to suggest that Nightshade was instrumental in Severn’s wolf trip to West March where Severn won his weapon at that time. Tiamaris is a slightly different story however Calarnenne and Tiamaris have centuries to meet over the interregnum either thru exploration or battle. Why Elianne was marked is relatively simple Calarnenne had been waiting millennema to renew aquaintence with a girl who struck his fancy
gregbanks3624 says: Question here, Why was Moran de Carful not in conflict? She is this godlike Aerian with Praevolo powers. She more than held her own vs Makuron while in the southern stretch. Has she come to some sort of understanding with the outcaste something like stay from mine and I’ll stay away from yours or is she just substantially weaker nearer the fiefs?
Therese says: @gregbanks362 I kept waiting for Moran to arrive too. I’m not sure how that would have changed things, but it would have definitely been interesting to see!
Therese says: I really like Mandoran and Kaylin’s friendship. It would be great if they did share their names with each other. I’d love to read that in a future book.
Mary Allen says: I wonder now that the tower avatars are interacting if Helen, the avatars for the academia, the high halls and even the Halleron (sp) will be allowed to communicate. I missed the Lord of the West March and wish Kaylin would visit him again.
fI thought the Blue Dragon was just Emmerian because they can change color.
Matthew says: Longterm lurker on your site Michele. Loved the book really liked all the interactions between the characters. Looking forward to see the impact of Kaylin healing Emmerian and how this could impact her relationship with the Dragons. What did she learn? Dragon tongue? Definitely, so many things I what to see. The new High Halls. How the Dragons would interact with the released “reset” Shadow from the High Halls. Definitely Team Mandoran! So want some more dinners with Dariandaros and literally “everyone.”
I really liked the idea that some of the cohort considered the acts of the Barrani as genocide against the Dragons during the wars. Just true to our own history, adds depth to the level of hated that would have come out of the wars.
Keep the stories coming.
Shadowkindrd says: @gregbanks3624
Emmerian and Diarmat are both blue dragons, although Emmerian takes on silver coloring in CoC. The Emperor is indigo.
As for why Moran isn’t there, well, she’s completely across the city and well south, and in the given time, she probably couldn’t be notified, raise the troops, and get to the fiefs in time to do anything. The involved Aerians were already in Ravelllon.
gregbanks3624 says: @Shadowkindrd
I’m inclined to agree with your observation the second bluish black Dragon was Diarmat which leads to other questions. Sanabilis and Diadanros (sic) stayed home for back up? The palace will be a quiet place with the loss of four Dragons within a year can we expect two or three more to wake from the Long Sleep within in the next few books?
Flight made it pretty plain that Illumen Praevolo has powers above and beyond any normal Areian I find it less than concievable that Moran was incapable of not having reinforcements additional to aid to Karramis in time considering she has the Hawklord and Areian Hawks available at the Halls of Law. I venture to say my opinion that Moran and Makuron have made some type of deal is not untoward.
Cheyenne says: I love your books!! Every time I read one I fall in love with fantasy all over again. I just wanted to say that. Anyway, Cast in Conflict was great. Bellusdeo and Emmerian. OMG! I loved the meeting of the fieflords too. So much happened. Did Kaylin pick up a new word? On her hand?
Aquilegia says: @Kareen McCabe: It was made /very/ clear that Nightshade views her as a tool, a weapon, a possession. He does not respect her as herself, he only respects her abilities and what she can do for him. I would never want to be in a relationship like that. And from what she has said, it sounds like Kaylin would not like it either. I am not sure is she and Severn will be able to overcome their shared past, but I find it far more likely than Nightshade ever viewing her as an equal partner.
I love the emotional ground this novel covered. Most of the conflict was internal. Sedarias and Emmerian fighting against themselves. And how facing those doubts and fears was good therapy for Kaylin. It has only been a year or so since the first novel (I think) and you can see the progress she has made. My only complaint, besides a couple typos, is how Maggaron seems to have disappeared for three quarters of the book.
Kat says: @ Aquilegia I completely agree about Nightshade. I can’t see Kaylin ever getting past how he governed his fief/ being a tool
Aquilegia says: It occurred to me that I didn’t say what I based my opinion on. And I think it’s important. I am not parroting the opinion of anyone in the books. Not even Helen. And you /know/ that she did her best to plunder his secrets while he was in screaming matches with his brother and his guard was down. She may not pass the information on, but she had to look.
I based it on eye color. Every time Nightshade tries to get intimate with Kaylin his eyes are violet. Not the purple of grief or the light blue of lust. Violet. A few years back on the old forums, I asked Michelle for a list of eye colors and meanings, and she said that violet means dominating desire or possessiveness.
The author told me that he wants to dominate and possess her.
Alisa Stein says: So my son, my husband and I are “arguing” about Hope, Shadow, Devourer and the Maker. We are reading all the books and getting our brains more confused by the second.
Is the Devourer an element?
Is the Devourer shadow?
Is Hope an element?
Any insight will be very much appreciated.
Aquilegia says: It is at times like this that I miss the forums. I understand why they no longer exist. Spam-bots being the nuisance that they are, as well as all the technical issues that tend to come up. But for some reason I felt less weird making my fourth comment on the same thread. And having it be nearly a year after the last comment. Don’t mind me, just whining a bit.
I am reading the entire series again. Because they are so wonderful and amazing, And I wanted to say that I was incorrect. Not that anyone will look here, not that anyone but me cares. But I do care, so here we go. I don’t like being wrong, but I like knowing that I said something wrong —and allowing it to persist— less.
In Cast in Chaos, Nightshade’s eyes do not turn violet. They are the sky blue of desire. However, it is immediately after he was going to chop off her legs in order to save her. Not caring about what she would want. So I maintain that his affection for her is entirely selfish. The Nightshade that existed when the towers activated or the one that spent decades with Gilbert might have a better perspective, but the one present in the regular timeline is a self absorbed tool.
Severn’s affection is almost entirely selfless, which creates its own problems. I am still firmly team none of them are ready for a relationship yet, and need to work on themselves.
Incidentally, pale blue is regret and sky blue is desire, and I have no real idea what the difference is.
CMarie says: I have just recently found this book series Chronicles in Elantra. I read all the books in order and although I enjoyed them I found myself frustrated by (1) some of the character interactions and (2) hints at important plot points that were never addressed again.
I too would be interested in a discussion forum, I think I would find it would help me to hear other readers perspective on the character interaction. If you know of a place where a discussion thread or forum exist I would like to join. I looked through Goodreads and Reddit found none. I do not know where else to look.
I understand from reading the blurb that the next book will feature more on Severn and may address some of the questions that stand out since the start of the series. I tried to read and then listen to the first Wolves book and found myself angry in such a way that I could not get past one/two chapters. I also did not like the narrators voice at all.
Severn is one of the characters in the story that I have significant problems with in terms of character relationship and interaction. I suspect him of being an ‘enemy’ spy from the beginning and consider his interactions with Kalyin to be actual grooming. While Kaylin is all about second chances, I find imaging Severn as a love interest for her repulsive.
He was 18 when he murdered the 2 children, also made a mess out of the killings, by murdering them at home and leaving her to find their bodies, which drove her out into the night alone and frantic with grief and betrayal in a dangerous fief. How is this fulfilling his wow of ‘protection’. He alone is responsible for a complete destruction of her mental health leaving her vulnerable to predators, which in turn lead her to murder and sexual assault and exploitation.
While Severn’s love does appear genuine it is not selfless, even his character in the books specifically admits to Kalyin’s that all his actions are about what he wants and are entirely selfish. I can’t remember which book he said that, but he did say it. He hides his past, he hides his thoughts, he hides his friends and connections, he never lets Kaylin into any part of his life. At the same time he lives in her head watching her life through her eyes every day, sensing her feelings. He has also managed to attach himself to her side by becoming her partner at work and going everywhere with her, even into Sedarais mind, really?
I believe that he uses magic so that although he is with her almost all the time, he is ‘not noticed’ like a forget me spell or a ‘don’t pay attention to me’, otherwise surely her friends and adopted family would be as creeped out as I am by his stalker behavior.
As you see I have thoughts and frustrations! However I am interested in other readers viewpoints on the books, character, story and world. I am open to alternate ideas and that I may have missed some nuance or evidence that contradicts my conclusion. I have not seen any discussion anywhere else other than here but this does not seem like to place to have a lively discussion on content of the books.
Aquilegia says: @CMarie Think back to when you were eighteen. We’re all of your choices we’ll planned out and rational? If so you are certainly one up on me. I didn’t kill anyone, of course. Or commit any crimes… Er… I never did anything grossly illegal or unethical and never got caught for anything else. But I sure managed a lot of stupid.
Top of the list of dangerously stupid was agreeing to be a nude model for a guy taking a figure drawing class. Alone in his bedroom. So lucky I wasn’t assaulted. Still have the drawing though, it’s nice. Second is going skinny dipping at night in a mixed group. Twice. Almost got arrested for that one. No one called in a complaint and no one admitted to being under eighteen and we we’re outside the city limits, so the cops had to let us go. Again lucky to not be assaulted. My favorite example of less obviously dangerous randomness and ‘what was I thinking?’ was trespassing onto a construction site. A building was being renovated and we were climbing all over the scaffolding. In our Halloween costumes. Because why not. Why wouldn’t I be wearing a long dress, impractical shoes, and voluminous cloak when climbing rickety scaffolding? I was stone cold sober and nineteen or twenty for every one of these. I am sure that everyone past the age of twenty five can think of some crazy shenanigans that their younger self did that were… questionable.
Teenagers can be morons at times. Even the well adjusted and reasonably smart and sane ones. These kids were not well adjusted or very well educated.
Killing the girls was wrong. Absolutely and in every way. But, I can see the thought process that led to it. He thought that they were going to die anyway, no matter what he did. And better to have them die with as little fear as possible beforehand. Horrible, but a mercy killing of sorts, it makes a twisted kind of sense. It was wrong, again, not agreeing with it. And I absolutely can see the boneheaded failure to consider the consequences of how she would react and what to do after. Eighteen year olds really are not always very good at consequences and are usually more than a bit self centered.
Because I can see — but not agree with — the logic of it all, I have never treated him as evil. Stupid, yes. Panicked and impulsive, certainly. Not evil, and not a villain until I have proof of it beyond one horrific choice that he has spent five years trying to atone for. His anger at thinking it only delayed but didn’t stop the transformation of the marks felt very real.
He appears to be codependent and terrified of losing the person he has devoted half his life to. Because of that he seems to close himself off as a defense mechanism and to try and avoid doing anything that would cause her to reject him again. He is not in a good headspace. Not mentally healthy. Whenever people try to solve the love triangle and debate over who Kaylin should choose, my answer is no one. None of them are ready or healthy enough for a stable relationship.
CMarie says: Hi Aquilegia, I want to thank you for engaging with me. I do enjoy the books and after 17 books I am invested in the characters and the resolution of the story line.
In response to your comments, I want to say that I do not see Severn as evil, I think he loves Kaylin, I think he had a terrible choice to make, both Kaylin and Severn believe there were only two choices, I don’t, (1) kill Kaylin or (2) kill the two girls. Kaylin would have wanted him to kill her, he chose to kill the two girls.
He may regret the necessity of the choice but not that the he took the action, after all his action saved Kaylin, who he loves. It’s also possible he had an additional motivation, to honor a wow he made to Kaylin’s mother (or someone).
Elantra is not modern day USA it’s a dystopian world, I read the books with that in mind. Both Kaylin and Severn and all the other characters see violence and killing as necessary for survival, and in their world it is.
I hope you can look back to your young self with more fondness and less judgment, one has to take risks to enjoy living, and your experiences though not without risk look more like adventures to me. Much of my risky teenage+ behavior was less sober and comparable with my peers at the time. Fortunately our world is less dangerous, we don’t have wolves hunting to eat us in our back yard every night, we are not squatting in our homes, and stealing to eat, avoiding gangs on the street during the day who would beat us, or men who would steal us away to a brothel.
I can accept the possibility that Severn ‘fell apart’ and then made a total mess of the girls execution. However, if Kaylin’s judgment of him as being a capable person was wrong we have no evidence of this. A 17/18 year old who grew up like he did or a 11/13 year old who grew up like Kaylin is not comparable for our experiences, we do not live in a dystopian lawless world with no parents. I would have expected him to do better, all evidence suggest he should have handled it better. Also, he has not once apologized for how he handled the murders/executions, why is that, considering the outcome, why does he not take responsibility for making a mess out of the situation? Is it possible it was intentional, and why?
This is the reason I could not read the first Wolves book, I became incensed, as his character in that book which is only 6 months later is portrayed as a calm, reasonable, capable even talented man. He is welcomed open arms into the Wolves, fawned over by Ybellion. The red carpet is rolled out to him even before he does any paperwork, before he is accepted or takes any vows, before he receives any training, they are spilling secrets galore. What is this weirdness? This is not the same Severn who made a mess out of the girls murders. I decided to stick with Kaylin’s story I just could not read, it made no sense to me it made me mad.
With all this I have been considering the role of Severn in Kaylin’s life, if Kaylin’s judgement of him is wrong and he did fall apart, then he is much more broken that he appears. He is looking to Kaylin for the kind of unconditional love and forgiveness one could only expect from a parent or a mother. Given their life experiences together as children I first thought of him as a big brother figure but found that did not fit well with me, it felt ugly, given their age difference I found I often wondered when his love for Kaylin transformed into desire and was deeply uncomfortable with the idea. But their little family was a family and I now think Kaylin was the Mom and Severn was one of her kids too, she loved them all unconditional, like a mothers love. This feels more right to me. Severn of course is mixed up, which is understandable with a childhood like he has had, he did not have a mother or fathers love, (maybe, we don’t know his background) he doesn’t know or understand the different types of love. I feel like his healing will necessitate understanding the love he craves from and receives from Kaylin is not be mixed up with intimate partner love. Love from an intimate parent is not unconditional and in my opinion there is no way it can be.
I also do not believe Kaylin sees him as an intimate partner. No doubt from the storyline Kaylin often admires his appearances, and that is possible without being strange. A mother or sister or for that matter daughter is capable of loving and admiring the visual appeal of a male relative without desiring.
As I said before Severn and Kaylin together as intimate partners to me feels all wrong. I’d like to see him well adjusted, happy and in love, just not with Kaylin. (shudder, yes I still feel repulsed when I think of it).
Kaylin does knows what a mothers love is, she does not know what an intimate partners love should/would be like.
The alternative to all this is of course is that he is a master manipulator and all his actions are about controlling Kaylin to his own personal advantage, and that he is very very good at what he does.
Aquilegia says: @CMarie Since you did not read the Severn books there is some of his background you can’t know. It covers the conversation with Nightshade when Severn made his choice. And there were five possible choices, not two. Do nothing, let the girls be abducted, be tortured and die in agony and terror. Hand them off to Nightshade and have them die quickly but still in afraid. Kill them quickly himself with minimal pain and fear. Hand Kaylin off to Nightshade so he could maybe kill her. Or kill Kaylin himself. It was clear that there was no other choice, Nightshade was watching the border and would have stopped them if they tried to leave. Three of those choices would allow him to lie to himself and say that he was innocent since he didn’t hold the knife. But he knew he was damned any way he chose. Nightshade knew what his answer would be, because time travel.
Severn has never asked for forgiveness or absolution, because he has said that he does not believe that it is something that can be forgiven. All he can do is try to make better choices in the future.
Another thing you can’t know is that he was raised from birth to ten years by a barrani man who was living incognito in the fiefs. There was no love there. Because barrani don’t do squishy emotions like love. Up to that point he had little sense of family or belonging.
Which could be why he clung to the idea of family with Kaylin so obsessively. He didn’t have a frame of reference, so he would not feel compelled to categorize his relationship with Kaylin as like a sibling or parental or anything else. She was family, and that was enough. I assume that as a healthy-ish teenager he experienced attraction to somebody, but nothing leads me to believe that he felt any towards Kaylin while she was still a child. They lived in a lawless territory surrounded by the worst sort of brothels. I don’t imagine they even considered it taboo to have sex with a child. If there was an attraction, there would be no reason not to act on it. With her hero worship she probably would have responded positively to any overtures he made. Ewww. Kaylin said that her only experience was with Barren, therefore nothing happened and I can believe there wasn’t anything icky there.
As to when his desire to be a family shifted to an earthier form of desire, that is hard to say. We know that he distantly checked up on her every so often while he was a Wolf. It could have been any time in her late teens or it could even have been soon after he started to interact with her again.
He has had more time as an adult to observe other relationships. More time to carefully consider what family and relationships are. He may have had a girlfriend or two between his novels and the main series. That has not been said. Kaylin has had no relationships and has not really analyzed anything beyond the familial. She has an extensive found family, even if she has nothing left of her blood.
Severn actually has a little bit of blood family. But… it’s complicated. It may well come up in the main series so I will summarize it for you. He is a child of The Green. His ‘father’ was human and his ‘mother’ barrani. She begged The Green for a child, and they had one. But only by becoming a part of The Green themselves, they no longer exist. To answer the fan question, half-elves are possible. But only if you are beloved of The Green and willing to to give up everything to have them. So pretty much only the one. But he has an aunt and any number of distant cousins. Not that any of them know beyond his aunt, and not that any of the others would acknowledge him or say anything if they knew. And Severn has magic and can focus magic though his chain. He can’t cast traditional spells, but he can remain unseen and do a few other tricks. It is a bit extra and over the top. But, in a way it makes sense. He has to be able to be a little bit super human in order to keep up with everyone else on the regular.
In the Severn books we see inside his head. We know some of his thoughts. He is not a spy or master manipulator, he just think like a barrani because he was raised by one. Not if you accept those books as canon.
Aquilegia says: @CMarie I forgot that you asked earlier. A decade or so ago there used to be forums on this site, but the spammers were too much of a pain, and they had to be removed. There also used to be a pretty good Yahoo Group, but those went defunct. There currently is a group on fansofmichellesagarawest (dot) wordpress (dot) com but they are not very active. Only one post in the last year.
I would love it if someone else started up a page on reddit. I am scared to do it myself. Since if I started it, I would have to be a mod. And having ADHD and being in charge of anything like that is a terrible, terrible idea. I have learned that from experience.
CMarie says: Thank you for sharing the background information from the Wolves, I really appreciate it.
I see now that I can maybe discount that Severn is part of the original plot against Kaylin/Chosen when she was a child.
Still that leaves the same questions open from the very first book: who knew about her and her marks and what kids to murder as part of the Outcasts plot?
So my supposition that he had some kind of magic that helps him go unnoticed or unseen is correct. Sneaking guy is using it all the time.
I still think he should apologize or at least be sorry for how badly he messed up the girls murders, it’s not about forgiveness or absolution. He is taking responsibility for the actions but not for the consequences of those actions.
It’s curious that Severn’s biological parents loved each other enough to create a child together that they knew would then result in their death, but not provide a loving caretaker after they were gone. What kind of nonsense is that?
I was wondering if Severn is considered human? I am not sure if Kaylin as ever been called human, I think is she always called mortal by the immortals. I remember one of Marcus’s wives saying she didn’t think Kaylin was human and I remember Nightshade saying that he thought Kaylin was maybe not even mortal. Also Kaylin was called daughter twice by dragons, once by the Outcaste and once by the skeleton dragon I think everyone recognizes her as not human but no one will say what she is. Any ideas?
I do not agree with you that Seven as a child did not have a good references of categorizing family relationships, there were families all around them to observe.
Regardless he is not a child anymore. Also I think the books are clear that Kaylin as a child was very aware of child exploitation, and brothels and completely understood that it was bad and to be avoided and to be afraid of.
It appears to me that Severn (and maybe Kaylin) is attempting to recreate the relationship he had with Kaylin when they were children, except Severn now wants to add sex. Their relationship as children was not normal or healthy, they were kids acting as adults and failing. The childhood relationship was her as a kind head of family providing love and care and him as protector, sound familiar?
As an adult he is not well adjusted emotionally, he is displaying signs of obsessive love, grooming behavior and stalker behavior and lucky for him his magic helps him do all that and go relatively unnoticed.
Not lucky for Kaylin who has serious trauma issues to deal with herself and should be able to grow up and recover, mature and experience life as an adult without the pressure to take care of his needs. I think their codependency and attachment issues would be disastrous for an intimate relationship. They both stuck in a past that’s not allowing either of them to moved forward. They should separate.
Hmm, I’ll think about forum thing. I have never done a Reddit page either. I think I’d be terrible at it. Facebook has possibilities and there may be other places like Discord. I’d love to talk about the books more but two people cannot keep a discussion going long. We’ll wear ourselves out and run out of thoughts! Plus it’s great when someone has just read the books and has fresh eyes. In a few weeks I’ll forget a lot of stuff and will need to read them again to remember. I’ll run of things to talk about or I’ll start a new series and get absorbed in that.
Goodreads has Groups and Discussion, do you know anything about those?
Aquilegia says: Severn’s parents gave him to a guardian, and told that guardian to raise him. Barrani just have very different ideas on parental care. Considering how often family members kill each other, it is not hard to understand why. That guardian did not do as good of a job as they intended him to, definitely not as good of a job as a human would think he should have. I think that was said pretty clearly. But I do think you really ought to just read the books yourself and not trust my barely adequate paraphrasing.
Kaylin’s mortality has been called into question by a lot of people. Mostly Nightshade, though. She seems to be human in much the same way that the Cohort are barrani. Maybe she is immortal, maybe she isn’t. Probably could be, but that presupposes that she actually survive this insanity. One of my favorite pet theories is that her father is the Outcaste. He could alter himself enough to actually /be/ aerian. Why could he not alter himself enough to /be/ human enough to father a child? She would still be human but with a tiny bit extra. (My second pet theory is that since dragons have two true names, their birth name and their adult name, Kaylin will pick up a second true name, a dragon one. But that is off topic.) The base of who she was before the marks changed her, if my theory is true, would make her human in exactly the same way that Severn is human. He is human in physiology and spirit. But there may be something extra there. We don’t know yet. I suspect there is, but I don’t have any proof one way or another.
I can’t remember where I saw it, and maybe I am just imagining things… but I could have sworn that it was said that there is always a Chosen somewhere in the multiverse. On one of the many different worlds. If I am not completely crazy, and that is true… Ravelon intersects with every world, and if the Outcaste knew where a Chosen was, and knew when they died it is not unreasonable to think that he could have used some kind of oracular or divination magic to try and find the next one. The sacrificed children were in a pattern spiraling closer to where she actually was. Those deaths were not only to modify her marks and control her, but they seem to have been used to locate her. No one would have had to betray her or helped to find her. It was all the Outcaste and magic. When she was in Barren I am nearly positive that Tara was siphoning her magic. That is why she didn’t use it unconsciously to defend herself while she was being abused and why the border held for so long. It is my belief that the drain on her magic protected her from that divination, in a way. And he moved on to different schemes until he got desperate enough to try what he did later near her previous location and hope to draw her in.
In times of high stress, in a war zone or a natural disaster, people get a form of myopic tunnel vision. They focus so much on surviving the battle or getting to someplace safe or completing some essential task that they are simply unable to see past that point. It is not that they fail to plan, it is that they can’t. I don’t think that Severn was capable of planning for anything beyond the fact of the deaths. That it was so painful and so difficult that mustering the mental strength it took made it impossible for him to plan anything else. It took him so long to find that strength that it ate up all the time he wanted to have by sending Kaylin out to the market. And I like him more for it. He actually cared about them and it was the hardest, most painful thing he could possibly do. If he was cold blooded and methodical, if he had a plan and could easily stick to it, I would never believe that he truly cared.
CMarie says: Sorry that I have taken more than two weeks to respond to your post, I have been distracted with personal stuff. Then I wrote a response, discarded and wrote a new one. I reread some parts of the books looking for information. Then rewrote my response maybe twice more!
I think it’s difficult to remember all the details and sometimes I miss or forget important details in the books, so I like talking through the plots, it helps me. However, I read fantasy because I want the author to tell me a story, I do not want to create a story myself. So for me, I am going to speculate or theorize as little as possible.
So first Kaylin’s race. Kaylin was born human and is mortal, Severn was born human and is mortal, I’ve searched all the books and there is not information to determine otherwise. Mortal and human mean the same thing when said by an immortal, I found that stated specifically in one book.
Kaylin was born human but I agree with you in that she is now ‘other’ she was first by the Chosen marks and then by The Dragon Outcaste spell, but she is still mortal. That’s it, everything else is a mix of speculation or conjecture based on hints, or what may be foreshadowing by the author.
So one foreshadowing worth noting; in Cast in Shadow, Nightshade makes a cryptic comment to Kaylin about not killing The Dragon Outcaste in consideration of her feelings, implying that it would be similar to what Severn did when he killed Steffi and Jade.
Secondly, Kaylin’s mortality. Nightshade questioning Kaylin’s mortality is straightforward to me, she is capable of healing herself. So while Kaylin has a mortal body she can heal herself allowing for an extended life and many of the benefits of immortality. I do wonder why she does not make more use of her healing powers for herself, and finally (conjecture) if she learns how to use her powers she can alter her own body to create an immortal body, or she’s not human (foreshadowing).
The first spell to transform Kaylin was when she was 13. No matter how the children were selected, by magic or otherwise, they were not killed remotely. So to do the final sacrifice Kaylin, Jade, and Steffi had to kidnapped, but they were missing, the girls because they were dead and Kaylin because she left Nightshade. Then the timing passed (quickly) for when the spell would be successful, something to do with the moon phases.
Steffi and Jade may have been considered important to make the spell successful but after three years of effort, they absolutely would have continued the spell and found more kids to sacrifice as they did later in Cast in Shadow. So I theorize that Kaylin being missing was the key to the spell failure.
I will theorize here that there were people who knew Kaylin and were watching her and involved in this plot, people more than The Outcaste and the dead Barrani, probably humans they knew. Steffi and Jade showing up when they did in Kaylin’s life is too much of a coincidence, them being needed for a sacrifice at final part of the spell, way too much of a coincidence. There are other bizarre coincidences in Kaylin’s early life, (timing of Severn showing up and Kaylin’s Mom’s death) and I really do not believe in coincidences. Maybe this back story will never be addressed in the books, but regardless Kaylin should confront her own past, and then move on, and there is potential in that story to resolve some of these annoying questions.
Despite many weakness in the story, I do like the world Michelle has created and I do like many of the characters. I am concerned the series will end with many unresolved questions and will leave me extremely dissatisfied.
The first book set the stage for the whole series yet there are many questions and unresolved plot points all the way back to that first book. Although many of the stories since then have been fun and interesting to read, Kaylin has shown no growth and very little change in these 17 books, often she seems to regress, and that regression is most obvious in how she concedes to allow Severn into treating her like a scared kid needing reassurance and protection
Now I know some of this is a limitation of first person story line, told over such a short time frame, and with starting with such a young character. This is part of why I rarely read YA material, but even so, I want better for the heroine, I want better for Kaylin. In Cast in Moonlight she was 13 and so bold, and courageous, and in Cast in Shadow she also shows much courage and maturity.
I dislike the Severn character and his past with Kaylin and his constant secretive silent presence in the books, I would prefer Michelle wrote him out of Kaylin’s daily life into a Caitlin, Marcus, or Lord Grammayre type role. There is just no way to develop Kaylin’s character and story (into anything worth reading) with Severn always around being so damnably annoying and boring, he is a limiting factor in any potential storyline (for Kaylin) going forward. Kaylin could get a new Hawk partner that actually knew magic maybe a Barrani partner that not only knew magic but actually shared knowledge, how novel. I understand YA books often insist on love interest, hell even if that needs be Severn as the crush she comes home to, (shudder) but please leave him out of the stories, he doesn’t work, his character adds nothing positive to Kaylin’s story. If Severn needs to be reinvented/rewritten/powered up to keep him in the story and keep the story interesting then I consider it a waste of ink, this time and word count should be spent on the main character, on Kaylin. There are immeasurable PNR out there, and some are even good, this is not a good PNR, if this story resolves into an attempt at PNR especially with the Severn character, it’ll end the books series. Any Severn fan can read his story in his book series, Elantra is Kaylin’s story.
There is many other ideas that would make for a richer story potential, befriend Nightshade is one, he has lots of knowledge which would help explore the world, and what about Spike, the familiar (way under developed character), the Adversary, Bakkon, and a magic university with a cool library and librarians guardians. How about The Dragon Outcaste, so many interesting characters with stories. I do actually enjoy the Cohort, but I just couldn’t read another full on Cohort story until some time is spent on developing Kaylin’s character. Maybe one of the Cohort would be her Hawk partner, Mandorian is fun and some other of the cohort could join her adventures like they have been doing without devoting whole books to them. There really is a lot of potential in this richly imagined world with interesting history and characters, but it won’t be realized if time and ink is spent on developing romantic interests. Instead for the next number of books, this time and ink needs to be on the main character and the resolving some of the original main plot/story.
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I read the book in one day and you never disappoint me. Loved it.